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Author Topic: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?  (Read 1864 times)

Offline Mizark

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Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« on: July 18, 2009, 10:35:04 pm »
New England Firearms has a barrel replacement deal but they will not put a rifle barrel on the SB1 frame. Does anyone know why this might be? I know higher quality single shots have multiple barrel choices. Why would they put a 12ga barrel on this receiver but not a .223?
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Offline RustyShackleford

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 10:57:56 pm »
New England Firearms has a barrel replacement deal but they will not put a rifle barrel on the SB1 frame. Does anyone know why this might be? I know higher quality single shots have multiple barrel choices. Why would they put a 12ga barrel on this receiver but not a .223?

The SB1 frame is made out of cast iron and the SB2 frame is made out of steel.  The SB2 frame handles more pressure over bolt face area than the SB1.

Offline Mizark

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 11:17:46 pm »
New England Firearms has a barrel replacement deal but they will not put a rifle barrel on the SB1 frame. Does anyone know why this might be? I know higher quality single shots have multiple barrel choices. Why would they put a 12ga barrel on this receiver but not a .223?

The SB1 frame is made out of cast iron and the SB2 frame is made out of steel.  The SB2 frame handles more pressure over bolt face area than the SB1.

That entirely makes sense. I knew Rusty would be the one to have the info! ;D However the pressure of a 12ga shell is greater than that of a 17, .22, 45lc, or even a 22-250. Why then don't they just say that only rimfire or small bore caliber barrels can be fitted. And can I fit a barrel myself?
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Offline RustyShackleford

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 05:42:29 pm »
However the pressure of a 12ga shell is greater than that of a 17, .22, 45lc, or even a 22-250.


That is entirely inaccurate on every count.  The SAAMI specs put a .22-250 at 65,000 psi and the 12 ga. at 11,500 psi for 3" and 14,000 psi for 3 1/2".  The .45 LC has comparable pressures to the 3 1/2" 12 ga at 14,000 psi but .45 LC Rugers have their own pressure tolerance of 25,000 psi.  Even the .22 LR and .22 Mag both carry 24,000 psi tolerances.

I don't have access to .17 HMR specs, but I will eat my hat if it's below 15,000 psi.  I expect it to be above 25,000 psi.  The .250 Savage to .22-250 Remington bumps up pressures by about 44% (45,000 psi to 65,000 psi) by necking down the cartridge by about 12%.  The .22 Magnum is necked down by about 23% (nearly twice the difference) to get to the .17 HMR, so I would expect a significant bump above the 24,000 psi of the .22 WMR.

The pdfs at the official SAAMI website are long and cumbersome.  There's an excellent chart at leverguns.com that you can use for quick comparisons of pressures.

Why then don't they just say that only rimfire or small bore caliber barrels can be fitted.


I would expect lawyers to be involved somewhere even though some of the really old cartridges have specs in shotshell ranges.  There are heavily loaded .45 LC ammo out there which would discourage a .45 LC barrel on an SB1 frame, but I am not aware of corresponding heavily loaded .44-40 or 38-.40 (13,000 psi and 14,000 psi respectively) rounds readily available, but there might also be complications on such pressures on bolt faces with smaller surface areas against such a weak and malleable metal as cast iron.

And can I fit a barrel myself?


Probably, but I wouldn't recommend it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 06:50:05 pm by RustyShackleford »

Offline RustyShackleford

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2009, 05:52:21 pm »
I think I can kind of see where you are going with this.  If you are looking to build a poor man's Encore, I'd definitely keep an eye out at pawn shops and such for a used SB2 frame NEF/H&R rifle.  You obviously know about the barrel accessory program and the SB2 is a very flexible platform for such an endeavour.  It gives you access to pretty much every barrel they offer except the 10 ga. and the 12 ga. Deluxe Slug.

I think it would be neat to get one chambered in .500 S&W and chop it off to 16 1/2" for a short, handy pig rifle.  I also would want one in .35 Whelan.

Offline Mizark

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2009, 07:10:57 pm »
My My Rusty, you are an amazing plethora of firearms information. Thank you for the information. I know who I'll msg next time I have a question! ;D
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Offline vanillo

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2009, 02:37:19 am »
I think Mizark may have meant the FORCE "of a 12ga shell is greater than that of a 17, .22, 45lc, or even a 22-250."  The force exerted on the action is a product of both the operating pressure and the cross-section area of the case at the head which it acts over, thus a 12 ga. @ 14,000 psi with a relatively large case head of about five times the area of like a 22-250 at 65,000 psi might exert more force on the action.  Small cases, like .223, will exert much less force.

I have a couple of Rossi Matched Pairs, 20ga/.223 and 12ga/.243, that I bought just to more likely always have something in reach when an opportunity presents its self.  All the barrels seem to fit both receivers.


However the pressure of a 12ga shell is greater than that of a 17, .22, 45lc, or even a 22-250.


That is entirely inaccurate on every count.  The SAAMI specs put a .22-250 at 65,000 psi and the 12 ga. at 11,500 psi for 3" and 14,000 psi for 3 1/2".  The .45 LC has comparable pressures to the 3 1/2" 12 ga at 14,000 psi but .45 LC Rugers have their own pressure tolerance of 25,000 psi.  Even the .22 LR and .22 Mag both carry 24,000 psi tolerances.

I don't have access to .17 HMR specs, but I will eat my hat if it's below 15,000 psi.  I expect it to be above 25,000 psi.  The .250 Savage to .22-250 Remington bumps up pressures by about 44% (45,000 psi to 65,000 psi) by necking down the cartridge by about 12%.  The .22 Magnum is necked down by about 23% (nearly twice the difference) to get to the .17 HMR, so I would expect a significant bump above the 24,000 psi of the .22 WMR.

The pdfs at the official SAAMI website are long and cumbersome.  There's an excellent chart at leverguns.com that you can use for quick comparisons of pressures.

Why then don't they just say that only rimfire or small bore caliber barrels can be fitted.


I would expect lawyers to be involved somewhere even though some of the really old cartridges have specs in shotshell ranges.  There are heavily loaded .45 LC ammo out there which would discourage a .45 LC barrel on an SB1 frame, but I am not aware of corresponding heavily loaded .44-40 or 38-.40 (13,000 psi and 14,000 psi respectively) rounds readily available, but there might also be complications on such pressures on bolt faces with smaller surface areas against such a weak and malleable metal as cast iron.

And can I fit a barrel myself?


Probably, but I wouldn't recommend it.
SHOOT: 177&22pellet,22RF,22Hornet,223Rem,243Win,6.5X55,270Win,7-08,30Luger,7.62X39,30-30,308Win,30-06,32S&WLong,338LapuaMag,9X19,380auto,38spcl,357mag,40S&W,45ACP, 45&50muzzle,410,16,20&12ga
RELOAD:above reloadable+222RemMag,256WinMag,7X57,30carbine,10ga
HUNT: trespasser,grackle,squirrel,coyote&hog

Offline RustyShackleford

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2009, 08:11:54 am »
I think Mizark may have meant the FORCE "of a 12ga shell is greater than that of a 17, .22, 45lc, or even a 22-250."  The force exerted on the action is a product of both the operating pressure and the cross-section area of the case at the head which it acts over, thus a 12 ga. @ 14,000 psi with a relatively large case head of about five times the area of like a 22-250 at 65,000 psi might exert more force on the action.  Small cases, like .223, will exert much less force.

I have a couple of Rossi Matched Pairs, 20ga/.223 and 12ga/.243, that I bought just to more likely always have something in reach when an opportunity presents its self.  All the barrels seem to fit both receivers.

I actually ran the numbers yesterday and had a little scrap of paper with all the specifics on it that I cannot find today.  The .22-250 does have greater pounds of thrust on the case head than the 12 ga. but it is the only one on his list that does.  I really wish I had the exact numbers to back this up.

The Rossi matched pairs are different.  They are better compared to the SB2 frames than the SB1.  As for the compatibility issue of all four barrels, I don't imagine there is that much that has to be fitted but at the same time over extended use I would imagine it would become more of an issue.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 08:19:55 am by RustyShackleford »

Offline vanillo

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Re: Model SB1 Pardner shotgun question?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2009, 08:57:25 pm »
Now you've done it, Rusty.  This will haunt me until I look up all the specs and do the calculations myself.  Canít help it.  Iím an engineer.     ;D


I actually ran the numbers yesterday and had a little scrap of paper with all the specifics on it that I cannot find today.  The .22-250 does have greater pounds of thrust on the case head than the 12 ga. but it is the only one on his list that does.  I really wish I had the exact numbers to back this up.

SHOOT: 177&22pellet,22RF,22Hornet,223Rem,243Win,6.5X55,270Win,7-08,30Luger,7.62X39,30-30,308Win,30-06,32S&WLong,338LapuaMag,9X19,380auto,38spcl,357mag,40S&W,45ACP, 45&50muzzle,410,16,20&12ga
RELOAD:above reloadable+222RemMag,256WinMag,7X57,30carbine,10ga
HUNT: trespasser,grackle,squirrel,coyote&hog